Are there many Irish waltzes?

[Percy]

I was another forum a few days ago, and someone there said that there are very many Irish waltzes -- that waltzes never really caught on in Ireland. So most of the tunes we know as Irish waltzes really come from Scotland or elsewhere. Is this true? I disagreed with the person, but then I got to thinking, maybe I'm wrong (could it be????)... So I'm asking any of our experts here -- are there many truly Irish waltzes out there? I was sure there was...

[Mary Margaret]

I'm not an expert - I hope Jim McCauley sees this - but I do know for a fact that a good number of tunes that are played in 3/4 time and called "waltzes" -- such as Si Bheag Si Mhor and Inis Oir -- are actually airs. Airs don't lend themselves to time signatures but in order to share the music they are often written in 3/4 time and end up being called waltzes. There are 100's and 100's if not thousands of Irish airs. I play both of the above tunes - they were orginally songs I believe sung in the Irish traditional Sean Nos style of unaccompanied singing. That's one reason the timing of airs can't be codified - because the singer's breath pauses create the phrases and timing.

I have studied the history of many Irish tunes and songs because I care deeply about their origination and development. But I am hardly an expert. I do get annoyed when people are careless in the use of language though - such as waltz vs. air.

I can also talk to my Irish instructor about this - he is a serious student not only of the music but of its history.

-MM

[Ròidh]

ya waltzes never caught on there but people elsewhere hung on to the irishy fused sounding waltz numbers,we like them ,jay ungers work an such,there may have been a few orriginal irish waltzes but they really never did catch on, wishing you the best !

[Mary Margaret]

Percy - I got fascinated by this subject because I never heard of "Irish waltz" until I joined forums so I was perplexed as you can imagine. so - I found this tidbit tonight on the Comhaltas website - please note that "waltz" doesn't exist in this paragraph which lists Irish music forms.

"Irish traditional music comes in two forms, vocal and instrumental. The latter is mostly dance music — reels, jigs, hornpipes, polkas, set dances, mazurkas — the remainder being marches, slow airs (usually song tunes) and planxties (harpers’ pieces which have survived from the 17th or 18th centuries). These tunes have various origins, but it is possible to state generally that they were mostly composed in the 18th and 19th centuries, that they were passed down aurally through generations of-music makers and that practitioners of the art of traditional music share a common approach and set of techniques in their interpretation of this music. "

[Aisha]

there are lots of beautiful O'Carolan waltz's. I love Fairy Queen.

[Percy]

I would tend to agree with this -- but it also doesn't mention ballads -- and there are THOUSANDS of ballads... And I've run into lots of old Irish waltzes (Give Me Your Hand is an example). Most of the waltzes I know have words as well -- so perhaps that's the difference as the article writes of two forms -- vocal and instrumental -- and then goes on to discuss instrumental dance music.

Or perhaps I'm just confusing 3/4 time tunes with waltzes, and that they are really not waltzes though the play and sound like it...

I'm starting to hate music...

[Mary Margaret]

pause! Remember - we - i.e., ME - am talking about Traditional Irish Music. Not all Irish music, Percy. I'm sure there are millions of ballads. And there are huge numbers of bluegrass musicians who are IRISH and playing IN Ireland. There are probably waltzes too - what I am saying and what I do stand by - is the Traditional Irish Music consists of just what Comhaltas outlined above.

I think you are confusing waltzes and airs, Percy. But I'm done with this subject! :)

Good luck to you, It actually doesn't really matter, does it? I don't play Irish airs in the manner that one would play a waltz, though. Doesn't have that typical waltz rhythm. I think it's rather an academic discussion. You can call every slow Irish tune a waltz if you like - in the end - it doesn't matter one bit.

[Percy]

My original question wasn't about Irish Trad -- it was about Irish waltzes. And when I listen to Give Me Your Hand, it's in 3/4 time, and I'm hearing it as a waltz, and it sure can be danced to like a waltz. So what's the definition of a waltz?

[Miriam Kavana]

It's true that jigs, reels, hornpipes, polka's, slides and slow airs make up what is called Traditional Irish music.
Percy, as you say - when you listen to 'Give me your hand', you're hearing it as a waltz.
Some people see it as a slow 6/8, others as 3/4. In any case, it sounds like a waltz.

The interesting thing is that, e.g. with 'Give me your hand', the tune itself is very old - according to Edward Bunting in his 'Ancient Music of I'reland', he states it's a harp tune written about 1603 by Ruairí Ó Catháin.
At some point, Gaelic lyrics appeared to it: 'Tabhair Dam Do Lamh', and around 1990 Brian Warfield of the Wolftones claims to have written the English lyrics for it.
This proces - an old composition to which. over time, lyrics are written - has happened fairly regularly with Irish instrumental pieces. You could say that e.g. 'GIve me your hand' is an 'Irish waltz', since it has been in the Irish tradition for centuries.

Ínisheer' however, was written by Thomas Walsh, an accordeon player from Dublin, who is alive and well! And yet this tune is already viewed as part of the Irish Tradition - a great accolade to the composer.
Inisheer is in a slow 3/4 timing so you could call it a waltz, yet it's usually called a slow air (sometimes a slow waltz). Confusing huh..?? It seems that the tempo with which a tune is played, also determines what the tune will be called - in this case, Inisheer: a slow air.
And to add to the confusion - Mary Margaret mentions 'airs' : in Ireland the melody of a song is often called an air (song air), so 'air' doesn't usually refer to a 'slow air' either!

In Ireland, in general, the naming of what kind of tune something is, can also be based on feel, certainly where slow airs in e.g 3/4 time are concerned. I think that over time, the name of what kind of tune something is, is also eventually shaped by e.g. the musicians who play it, and with that description (in the case of Inisheer, a slow air) it eventually enters the Irish Tradition.
So it seems that from a pure music theory/composition point of view, the 'what kind of tune' name may not always be correct, but in the Irish tradition the 'what kind of tune' name a tune eventually gets, can in some cases override this.

Are there many Irish waltzes...? Yes!!
Irish waltzes are usually songs! So that's the other way round from the above.
There are many, many Irish songs that may not come under 'Traditional Irish' but are widely known as waltzes played at dances, and are simply known as Irish waltzes. They are either sung or played instrumentally.
Ususally the waltzes will appear as a medley of quite a few of them played together in one set.
Examples of these are: Galway Bay, The homes of Donegal, The Galway shawl, The county of Mayo etc etc.
Not Traditional Irish music, but also part of Ireland.

[George Fowler]

I would guess that many 3/4 tunes from Ireland (especially the chestnuts) were originally song airs (including the harp pieces) that have been adapted subsequently as waltzes. Gentle Maiden, Southwind, Give Me Your Hand, Fanny Power, etc. are all in that category. That said there are a number of modern waltzes composed by Irish musicians; Merino Waltz (John Sheehan) and The Belltable (Maurice Lennon) come immediately to mind.

Best to all
George

[Jason Busniewski]

It seems that many of the tunes considered "waltzes" are Carolan tunes or similar compositions from the 17th and early 18th centuries. According to the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, the waltz first became internationally popular in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. I don't think we can say that these older tunes are waltzes per se, but rather that they are tunes that existed previous to the waltz that happen to coincidentally be the sort of music that works well for waltzing.

[Miriam Kavana]

That's right George, & they're beautifull tunes too, thanks for reminding us.

[Percy]

Okay... So I'll refrain from calling them waltzes. From now on, when our band is going to play one, I'll announce it by saying, "We're gonna play a 3/4 time tune that sounds an awful gosh darn lot like an Irish waltz, but it ain't."

That should settle things.